Smiths gauges on 427 Cobras

[xb-60]

Anybody know the reason why Shelby went back to Smiths gauges for 427 Cobra production, both roadsters and S/Cs?
He had already switched to SW gauges on the later 289s, so there must have been a reason to change back.
Of course the Smiths gauges look better, so there's an excellent reason

Does the Smiths fitment mean that he went back to an AC-fitted loom as well?

Cheers,
Glen

Correct answer....$$ ?

[LMH]

Not sure but the some of the SW gauges/senders in leaf spring cars were prototypes and not available for sale. Replacement gauges were different, even back then. Guessing then that supply for SW wasn’t there.
Larry

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by xb-60

Anybody know the reason why Shelby went back to Smiths gauges for 427 Cobra production, both roadsters and S/Cs?
He had already switched to SW gauges on the later 289s, so there must have been a reason to change back.
Of course the Smiths gauges look better, so there's an excellent reason

Does the Smiths fitment mean that he went back to an AC-fitted loom as well?

Cheers,
Glen

Correct answer....$$ ?

It is believed specifications were written and approved based on cost of delivered chassis. It could not have been low cost for Ford and Stewart Warner to create and keep up with all the “experimental” wiring and instruments in a CSX2201 through CSX2589 street cars. Ford and Stewart Warner spent engineering time as far back as 1962 to engineer what was going to come at CSX2201. CSX2008 was fitted with an experimental Ford electrical system including a prototype tachometer drive Ford alternator when it was reconstructed as a concept car. CSX2126 was a running car in February 1963 with not only prototypes of the Ford/McCord coolant radiators and expansion tanks, but prototypes of Ford designed wiring looms and Stewart Warner instruments. Most of the Ford and Stewart Warner production parts for CSX2201 through CSX2589 chassis weren’t offered as service parts.

Expense 1: Engineer, build up prototype parts and test them, and complete a prototype fitted car and test it.

Expense 2: Create the parts in America as much as a year or more before AC Cars would install them in a chassis and hold that inventory on the books.

Expense 3: Ship those parts to AC Cars.

It is also believe that Ford was losing interest in any version of Cobra by 1965 as their attention shifted to the GT40 program. More than a few ex-Shelby American employees have commented on how much their little company changed when the first GT40 chassis arrived.

Yes, AC Cars provided the wiring looms and instruments for coil spring chassis.

[xb-60]

Thanks Larry and Dan. You are the two guys I knew would respond.
Can you tell me why, on the 260/289 cars, Ford and Stewart Warner would spent engineering time on the SW intrumentation and Ford loom when the AC looms and Smiths gauges would surely have been almost a straight carry-over from the Ace setup? I would have thought that it would have been a no-brainer cost-wise to continue to use the AC setup, as they did when they reverted to same with the 427?

Cheers,
Glen

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by xb-60

Thanks Larry and Dan. You are the two guys I knew would respond.
Can you tell me why, on the 260/289 cars, Ford and Stewart Warner would spent engineering time on the SW intrumentation and Ford loom when the AC looms and Smiths gauges would surely have been almost a straight carry-over from the Ace setup? I would have thought that it would have been a no-brainer cost-wise to continue to use the AC setup, as they did when they reverted to same with the 427?

Cheers,
Glen

Hi Glen,

The known (mostly published but some first person narratives from key people on the American side of the equation) history of the birth and evolution on what we know as Cobras is quite complex. In simple terms Ford was working towards buying itself international fame and fortune by taking the short cut of buying somebody else’s handiwork and making it theirs. FoMoCo even tried to buy Ferrari and got real close to doing so. The goal was to have a product of Ford Motor Company becoming an international household name. The cost was millions of early 1960s dollars. Ford wanted the world to believe that Cobras were not only a Ford product but American.

Based on the Registry, very early Cobras were usually sold as “SHELBY AC COBRA” cars, at least into the CSX208x range. After that most cars were sold as either Cobra-Ford (75% of those documented) or just “Cobra” (10%). Less than 10% of cars documented in the Registry have “Shelby” mentions and most were the very early cars. (The first car sold as a “289 Cobra” by invoice date (06/26/1965) was CSX2580 with automatic transmission. The first car sold as a “Shelby Cobra” by invoice date (01/14/1965) was CSX2583 also with an automatic transmission.)

AC Cars bought John Tojero’s sports car design and reworked it a little to make it the prototype ACE. Mr. Tojerio made two cars that became the ancestors of all ACEs, RS2.6s, and Cobras. The first car was a pure racer. If you look at a late ACE, RS2.6, or early Cobra chassis closely they look like Mr. Rudd’s first chassis just larger right down to the use of fasteners that would be common to all cars through the last street Cobra. Mr. Rudd’s second car was to be his street version but became the first AC ACE.

Ken Rudd, with Ford supplying engines and transmissions, and AC Cars morphed the ACE into the Ford powered RS2.6. Hugus and Shelby with help from Ford got the RS2.6 morphed into the prototype Cobra. Ed Hugus used his disposable income to fund building the first production Cobras; the first CSX2001 being the first by number race car. Hugus had finished less than a half dozen cars when Ford got some for their engineers to evaluate. Legend says that Ford’s engineering department didn’t think much of the cars with very poor cooling systems supplied by AC Cars. They were also not impressed with the electrical systems or lack of a heater. Ford literally took over around CSX2008. Ford adopted legal liabilities and warrantee obligations. Mr. Shelby and his team became contract employees. (The original and amended contracts still exist. A friend has them and I have read both thoroughly.) Ford engineering teams immediately went on a rush program to Fordize the cars. Production at AC Cars did not stop so changes were fed in as they became available. One legend I have come across since the mid 1960s is that the HP289 engine family was created for Cobras and Ford used spreading production to Fairlanes to help pay for the costs of development and production. Putting the same engines in Fairlanes available at any Ford dealer also legitimized the engines as production models not much differently than Ford did for rare 427 race engines in Fairlanes and Boss engines in Mustangs.

One of the first Fordifications seems to have been the addition of a heater and windscreen demister. At the current time it is fairly certain that CSX2031 was the first chassis by number to be fitted with a Ford heater and retained for a while as a test car. I say Ford heater because research done by an enthusiast in the UK figured out that the Delaney-Gallay heater assembly unique to Cobras started off as a English Ford Prefect sedan heater design with customization to make it suitable for Cobras.

Late 1962 Ford was working on a complete new higher capacity electrical system that would meet Ford’s engineering requirements for new cars. The prototype type chassis was finished out of sequence. CSX2126 was in California running in February 1963 with a very unique Ford electrical system and instruments by Stewart Warner. CSX2126 was to AC Cars the first production rack and pinion steering chassis. CSX2126 was in California before the rolling chassis CSX2080 got to the USA. Based on images from 1963 CSX2126 was fitted with very early HP289 engine. So CSX2126 appears to be the prototype of what was implemented at CSX2201 built up on the new rack and pinion chassis with HP289 engine: new Ford wiring, mostly Ford switches (turn signals/horn, cooling fan switch, and windscreen wiper switches were not Ford), Ford charging system, new instrumentation based on Stewart Warner products, and new Ford cooling system by Ford's supplier McCord.

Transmission wise Ford money had Borg Warner create a family of aluminum cased T10 transmissions, based on a big block 427 Ford race transmission, to suit 289 c.i.d. engines. (The nose on inputs for 260/289 engines is longer than that of what 427 engines used so new inputs were required. There were also more available gear ratios for Cobras.) This change happened sometime between CSX2115 and CSX2136.

Engine cooling wise Shelby American’s fix was adapt 1962 Corvette radiators and coolant expansion tanks to chassis built to use AC Cars supplied radiators. Current information leads me to believe that CSX2141 was the first production chassis by number to get the new Ford / McCord cooling system components along with a new thermal switch housing and revised switch made under the Otter® brand name. CSX2142 may have been the first race car with the new Ford / McCord components.

The complete Ford make-over came together with the contract starting at CSX2201. The CSX2201-CSX2589 street chassis would have the most Ford “content” of all the cars AC/Shelby/Ford worked together on.

Sorry for the long answer but there was not just a wiring and cooling redesign driven by Ford to make the cars more Ford more American. Early in Cobra production Mr. Rudd’s RS2.6s and Mr. Shelby’s Cobras were being made side by side with very different specifications and materials.

In case you did not know AC Cars built COB/COX cars for their home territory markets side by side with CSX2xxx “North American” chassis (“North American” is a quote from new car service parts books that clearly identify that parts for the American market were different in many cases.) for much of the Cobra production era. The COB/COX cars used English wiring, instruments, and charging systems while CSX cars right beside them used Ford stuff. Said another way COB/COX cars and CSX cars produced at the same time are very different, very English in every way right down to English made tires to Americanized CSX cars right down to some tires made in Gadsden Alabama.

Then by the time 427 Cobra squabbles between Ford and AC Cars started, Ford was moving on to a new toy. They bought another English sports car design and by the time Shelby American, Holman-Moody, and later Kar Kraft Fordized them the world called them Ford GTs (a.k.a. GT40s).

[LMH]

Ha, new info I didn't know on CSX2583! I'll have to pass that along!
Larry

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by LMH

Ha, new info I didn't know on CSX2583! I'll have to pass that along!
Larry

Ever find an original version of carburetor for that car?

[LMH]

We both talked to the guy in Phoenix that had one for sale but the owner thought the seller wanted far too much for it. They never could come to an agreed price. So I'm still looking.
Larry

[xb-60]

So if "Ford was losing interest in any version of Cobra by 1965" because of Shelby taking on the GT40 program for Ford, who was responsible for (as in who paid for) the development of the 427 coil spring chassis and the different 427 body? Was that solely AC's responsibility because they wanted to update to keep COB/COX cars in UK and Europe?

Many thanks for your knowledge and insights into Cobra history Dan.

Cheers,
Glen

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by xb-60

So if "Ford was losing interest in any version of Cobra by 1965" because of Shelby taking on the GT40 program for Ford, who was responsible for (as in who paid for) the development of the 427 coil spring chassis and the different 427 body? Was that solely AC's responsibility because they wanted to update to keep COB/COX cars in UK and Europe?

Many thanks for your knowledge and insights into Cobra history Dan.

Cheers,
Glen

It was still Ford money. Ford engineers did most of the main frame and suspension design work for the coil spring car. Ford got something like 43 international patents on design elements of the rear suspension, one of the first “computer aided” design sets of drawings Ford did.

A few of us spent an evening with the Ford engineer responsible for the front suspension. He had us on the edge of our seats talking about the tensions going on while the car specifications were being approved. Ford had in mind a very different car from the ground up but the owners of AC Cars said no, they couldn’t absorb the expense of discarding all the materials and parts already on hand. The particular sore point from his point of view was the front uprights, hubs, brakes, axles, and steering systems. His original designs didn’t use anything based on the earlier Cobra designs. He told us AC Cars said flat not because they already had blanks on hand left over and a bunch of new Cobra steering racks on the shelf. AC Cars could not would not eat the cost. Ford gave in and left over Cobra materials were used up. You’ll find left over dated Cobra parts all the way into at least the mid CSX31xx car, especially steering racks and windshield glass. The tools , parts, and materials AC Cars would not toss out meant 427 Cobras had to be Cobra like. At least that was the first person explaination he gave.

Ford money but not a front burner project anymore. I am sure the story is much more complicated than that but Ford jumped in deep with the Ford GT program….many more engineers and millions than they spent on Cobras.

Example: Steering Racks. I have found steering units in intact CSX30xx and late intact CSX31xx cars made more than two months before the ones in some CSX25xx cars.