Original leaf-spring Cobras and "model years"

[fintubi]

Folks -

I'm aware that Cobras were built in running-changes fashion, without aggregating updates into annual bundles as with mass-market cars.

As such, it doesn't really seem that meaningful to talk about the cars as being a certain model year. Did SAI ever refer to the cars as having a model year, or indicate one on the MSO? Or did these cars just get titled with the current year when processed under the laws of the states where they were sold?

One of the most visually apparent changes to the leaf-spring street roadster was the addition of fender vents, wider wheels, and adjusted flares in the middle of 1963, emerging right around the time the big OEMs would be putting '64 models into production. Are cars manufactured and sold in the latter months of 1963 - with these fairly obvious visual cues - typically considered '63, '64, or "N/A"?

Thanks,
Bill

[1985 CCX]

Late 1964's were also rebadged 1965 to make it more confusing.
These didn't sell like hotcakes so cars were spread out over the years.

[Dan Case]

I do not know if you will get the answers you seek.


Shelby American was very loose with what model year meant. Owners have been very loose with what model year meant. The original invoices I have seen do not mention a model year. The window sticker for CSX2568 starts off “1965 COBRAS…”.


Experimental High Performance 260 (XHP-260) engines were 1963 model to Ford based on when they were made and introduced (road draft tube crankcase ventilation).


High Performance 260 (HP260) engines were also 1963 model engines (road draft tube crankcase ventilation).


High Performance 289 (HP289) engines made between late 1962 and June 1963 were 1963 model engines (road draft tube crankcase ventilation).


HP289 engines assembled between August 1963 and July 1964, and a special run in August 1964 were 1964 model year engines (PCV system crankcase ventilation).


HP289 automatic transmission engines from September 1964 for 15 each Cobras were 1965 model year engines (PCV system crankcase ventilation).


I have found nothing that indicated that Shelby American associated model year of engine with model year of car. One of the three different “1963” engines went to the first hundred plus Cobras, most cars received “1964” engines, and 15 each cars received “1965” engines.

Shelby American wise:

September 1, 1964
A letter was sent to dealers with cars in stock dated September 1, 1964 instructing them to attach the “1965 COBRA” tags to “…each 1965 Cobra you have in inventory.” The stated purpose was to assist getting any new 1965 Cobra “…registered as a 1965 model.” The problem was the letter failed to define what a “1965 COBRA” was. Cars in the CSX2401-CSX2500 contract were being sent out during that time.


December 23, 1966
“Model Number = Model 1 in the Cobra series indicates the Cobra 289, produced from 1963 to 1965. Car serial numbers are as follows:


1963 - Before CSX-2150
1964 - CSX-2150 to CSX 2308
1965 - CSX-2309 to CSX 2589”


But the next line read, “All these cars use the 289 C.I.D. engine.”, which we know was not true.

[cycleguy55]

I've lost / forgotten the source reference, but have seen elsewhere the following, but also expect others will disagree / dispute this:

• Mark I cars were leaf spring with worm and sector steering
• Mark II changed steering to rack and pinion
• Mark III are coil spring cars

[fintubi]

Dan -

You've actually provided very much what I was looking for. I didn't expect an unambiguous answer, but rather a discussion of the various interpretations that have emerged in this hazy area.

Thanks!

Bill


[quote=Dan Case;1520664]I do not know if you will get the answers you seek.


Shelby American was very loose with what model year meant. Owners have been very loose with what model year meant.
...

[Harpoon PV2]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

I've lost / forgotten the source reference, but have seen elsewhere the following, but also expect others will disagree / dispute this:

• Mark I cars were leaf spring with worm and sector steering
• Mark II changed steering to rack and pinion
• Mark III are coil spring cars

Problem with that is, at AC cars, Mark II meant coil sprung in the Chassis book and Leaf sprung in the Drawing office and stores. I suppose, if it was easy this sight would be, just a place to show pictures of Cobra's! Cheers, Dennis

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

I've lost / forgotten the source reference, but have seen elsewhere the following, but also expect others will disagree / dispute this:

• Mark I cars were leaf spring with worm and sector steering
• Mark II changed steering to rack and pinion
• Mark III are coil spring cars

Ford Motor Company and Shelby American would probably have had no idea what one meant by MKI, MKII, and MKIII in the 1960s; A.C. Cars probably would not have either. Those terms appear to have cropped up in the early 1970s by different people making attempts to separate different versions of ‘Cobras’ from each other. The first “MK” anything that has been found was in a factory reference from A.C. dated June 26, 1972. During production there were Cobra I or Model 1 vehicles and then Cobra II or Model 2 vehicles in the USA the best I can tell.

The parts department at Shelby American had their own naming conventions.

The January 15, 1965 Shelby American parts book there were “COBRA I” and “COBRA II” vehicles. It was very important to tell the parts department what your chassis number was so they knew which parts your car would require. (The race wheels Halibrand created for 427 Cobra as marked “COBRA II” I believe.


The December 23, 1966 Shelby American parts book there were “Model 1…1963-65” Cobras and “Model 2 in the Cobra series indicates the Cobra 427…”.

That earliest "MK" anything I have located was in correspondence between the A.C. Cars parts department and the owner of a COX61xx coil spring chassis trying to get information in 1972. Months of back and forth confusing correspondence finally included "MK" naming in the June 26, 1972 letter to the car owner. A.C. had been giving answers specific for a leaf spring chassis suspension set up to the owner of a coil spring car until that letter.


Over time all kinds of MK (Mark) definitions have been created. I have no idea who started the "Mark" naming, could have been just about anybody at any time a change was made. I have read everything I could get since the 1970s. Owners and fans seem to disagree more than agree. When new drawings were done in November 1962 for what became the CSX2126-CSX2164 version of main chassis, the title was "DESCRIPTION:- CHASSIS FRAME" for "MODEL:- 3•6 ACE". Some I have seen include:

MKI = all leaf spring cars no matter which engine or steering system, OR leaf spring cars powered by a 260 engine no matter what the chassis number was, OR a leaf spring car with the cam and follower based steering system no matter what engine was installed. (June 26, 1972 A.C. Cars letter “…COBRA Mark 1.” chassis had transverse leaf springs with “…an earlier type of front suspension.”.)

MKII = leaf spring chassis with a 289 engine installed no matter what the chassis number was, OR a leaf spring car with rack and pinion steering, or a coil spring chassis with 427 or 428 engine. (June 26, 1972 A.C. Cars letter, “…COBRA Mark 2. has transverse springing...”)

Note: The prototype Cobra started off with a 221 2V Ford Fairlane engine. There were leaf spring cars outfitted with 260 engines and 289 engines. There were chassis outfitted with cam and follower based steering that had 260 and 289 engines. CSX2196, a leaf spring car with rack and pinion steering, first received a 1964 Galaxie R Code 427 8V engine. CS 2030 was the prototype car for rack and pinion steering. Most of the MKI and MKII names definitions get blown up real quick, except the two in the A.C Cars letter.

MKIII = usually means coil spring chassis with either a 427 or 428 engine BUT some call it a coil spring chassis with a 289 engine (A.C. Cars European “289 Sports”). (The June 26, 1972 letter to an owner of a COX61xx chassis was told, “…it is definitely called a COBRA Mark 3. Coil suspension.”, which is the very first factory reference sentence I have come across using “Mark” anything.)

None of these really help original car owners much if any. Since the day they were sold getting the correct parts for any original car meant having the chassis number ready for the parts and service departments. There were chassis orders and then within those orders specification changes were made. Was your car a street car or factory prepared race car? Two chassis one number apart can be very different. For example, two production specification change sets most may recognize include the change in steering system at CSX2126 and the change in electrical and systems at CSX2201. Literally hundreds of parts or subsystems changed between CSX2001 and the last 289 Sports.

[6TNCRZY]

I'm pretty sure my fathers Cobra was CSX2538 and it was sold as a 1965.

[Dan Case]

Going back to model years, I do not think such a matter was important at the time of the Cobras before September 1964. Which version of specifications was in play when any given car was completed was significant. 427 Cobras often picked up a model year designation for original Bills of Sale. If you tabulate what is in the Registry these names show up that include model years:

1966 427 Cobra
1966 Cobra
1966 Cobra Street
1967 Cobra
1967 Cobra, Street
1966 Cobra 427
1966 Cobra, Street
1967 Shelby Cobra
1966 Cobra Competition Model
1966 Cobra Street Version
1966 Ford Cobra
1967 S/C Cobra
427 Cobra - 1966
427 Cobra, 1967 Model Year Street
Competition Model 1966 Cobra


For original 1960s Cobras/427 Cobras/289 Sports with all the different chassis prefixes CSX, CS, COB, and COX the single most important detail when seeking parts and information is the complete chassis number. Which facility complete a give car was secondary and more distant third was exactly when a given car was completed are important to know before seeking assistance. It has been that way since CSX2001 got into private hands.


Then there were the ‘factory’ prepared race cars (which could mean Continental Cars for CSX2001, or Shelby American for most, A.C. Cars, or Holman-Moody for CSX2009) were completed one at a time or in small groups was an important clue as to how any given car might have been day one in a customer’s hands. After that for racers, for which race are you interested in as most Shelby team cars got changed race to race or event to event depending on the latest great innovations of the particular week.


We bought CSX2310 in October 1983 and it was in need of a few service parts. When I asked for pricing and availability of my wish list items, the only question the parts dispatch clerk asked was something like, ‘What is the chassis number?’. The same question has come up when buying anything for the car ever since.


Cars were made in contract batches and within those groups specifications could be changed and often did. My current tabulations of changes I can document in some way for CSX2001-CSX2589 (mostly street stock) cars is thirty one (31) pages long and I add line items anytime I come up with additional information. My itemized list includes nothing for the COB/COX60xx cars which were done much differently than CSX2201 and later cars built at the same time.


CSX2001-CSX2100, there were very many specification changes. Without offering the car’s chassis number when asking technical questions or order parts, you might not get the correct information or part for your car. CS 2030 became the first car in RHD drive and first car with rack and pinion steering for example. Front brakes changed for that one car also.


CSX2101-CSX2200, again there were many specification changes through CSX2188. I not aware of any specification changes CSX2189-CSX2200 so far.


CSX2201-CSX2300, hundreds of changes were introduced at CSX2201 from main frame details up. CSX2200 and CSX2201 would have looked similar on a new car lot but electrically and other parts and assemblies wise they were very different.


CSX2301-CSX2400, not many changes were phased in.


CSX2401-CSX2500, not many changes were introduced. Some planned for CSX2401 were not implemented until further into the series; a situation that confounded our research for years.


CSX2501-CSX2589, not a lot changed but 1965 Fairlane engines with automatic transmissions got added to the options list.


COB/COX60xx cars, I have not worked on a list of changes within their manufacture, but they were electrically very different than the CSX2201 and later cars built at the same time.


Disclaimer, I have not tried to document all the changes in 427 Cobras. That said CSX3002-CSX3100 chassis were intended to be race cars but the contract was aborted about mid way (the series was not completed). Unsold chassis already in California got just enough civilization for them to be sold as street cars with 1966 Fairlane 8V engines.


CSX3101-CSX3200 were different in numerous ways and things like an automatic transmission option and an under car header system became available. A small group of cars were made with smaller rear wings (a.k.a. fenders).


CSX3201-CSX3300, I do not know how many changes got included but Shelby American sent a significant list of design and parts changes they wished to A.C. Cars for their run.


CSX3301-CSX3360, sorry I know little about them other than the change to a 427 4V engine.


COB/COX61xx chassis, sorry I have not collected data on them, but they were not exactly like the 427 Cobras being built at the same time; HP289 engines and transmissions being very different for example.




I started in circa 1971 trying to understand why Cobras were so different from each other. Many people have wondered such and the biggest chassis revisions are outlined in broad strokes in various commercial publications. Late 1962 through the summer of 1965 most new Cobra buyers bought the car they wanted from inventory or custom ordered something to their tastes, street or race. A small number of buyers bought street cars and went racing with countless self-done performance modifications. The trend since the early 1970s has been for subsequent owners to morph the Cobra they have towards the Cobra they wish they had. Usually but not always that means a move away from any original configuration. Toss in some famous racers and rebuilders who tend to homogenize every car they touch into configurations that works well for them and it takes almost no analysis to determine that not many highly original content original configuration cars still exist. An advertised low mile 'untouched' car today usually has as many as two dozen things that have been changed on or around just its engine. A generally highly “restored” Cobra might have a few hundred non-stock details. If you count replacement fasteners, especially for the original British ones, and materials of construction a “restored Cobra” might have as many as 800 individual variances or more from the day it left for delivery to whoever ordered it. (One must also keep in mind that quite a few cars have been recreated from little or nothing. In those cases, nothing you see might have ever been inside the facilities A.C. Cars, Ed Hugus, or Shelby American.)

[1795]

Dan,

That is just an amazing amount of work and dedication that you have done in your lifetime, and we all benefit tremendously from it. If any university would ever offer a Doctor of Cobra degree, you certainly have completed your dissertation and would have it conferred! Until that time, I confer upon you the honorary degree of Doctor of Cobra.

Jim

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by 1795

Dan,

That is just an amazing amount of work and dedication that you have done in your lifetime, and we all benefit tremendously from it. If any university would ever offer a Doctor of Cobra degree, you certainly have completed your dissertation and would have it conferred! Until that time, I confer upon you the honorary degree of Doctor of Cobra.

Jim

LOL…


I have been answering Cobra details inquiries for four decades now. Our family was in a local antique car club and the Antique Automobile Club of America, I started working on Model A Fords with my father circa 1960-61. The clubs were ‘car clubs’ for sure but friendships were super important. Active members helped each other with their old cars. If someone needed help pulling a frame back straight, it was done for free between friends.


I started trying to make my available funds equal the current value of a Cobra in the spring of 1968. (My pricing data chart starts in 1968; a chart I still maintain for fun.) By 1971 I was trying to figure out the versions of cars and which version I wanted to own. The two dollar curves crossed in 1983 and we obtained our black car. I continued the practice of helping where I could that started back circa 1960-61, this time with Cobra details. Over time lots of questions have been answered and recorded for use the next time the same or similar gets asked. Long ago I started a file of details of engines in new Cobras on a 3X5 index card. The main engine file is now a digital text document 133 pages in length in its 186 revision level. That is one file on a subject. There are several other files also related to engines covering details most might never think of. (Example: Continental Cars did this and Shelby American did this for one specific part requirement.) The fuel pumps slide show is 50 pages, stock carburetors slide show 115 pages, COBRA cast SAE 1030 steel safety bell housings 20 pages, and etcetera.


It has been not all one-way exchanges as many of the people I have assisted have helped us answer other questions I did not myself have access to. It is play for me.

[Harpoon PV2]

While it is true, MKI and MKIII were never used, AC Cars Ltd did use MKII! As F Wilson McComb stated on page 40 of his book AC (Shelby) Cobra: 'Mark II means coil-sprung Cobra in AC's chassis record book but leaf-sprung car to the company's drawing-office or stores". Rinsey Mills has the exact wording from the chassis book on page 6 of his great book, Original AC Ace & Cobra: "MKII Coil Sprung Cobra". I have no idea when the drawing-office used MKII, was it for the rack and pinion cars? Coil-sprung chassis, were the first and only major redesign to the Cobra, after the Tojeiro designed Ace and Cobra leaf-sprung cars! No, neither Shelby nor Ford, completely redesigned the small block cars as some books claim. So there you have it, MKII was used, but was probably not known out side the factory, or even, inside the factory's other department's! McComb sums up best the entire 1960s Cobra production in his book, with the title of chapter 2 "Stranger Then Fiction". That's what I love about the Cobra, they shouldn't exists, but they do, and are the most replicated cars in history, hands down! Cheers, Dennis








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