Now it won't start--again

Clois Harlan · #1 (**permalink**) 10-10-2003, 07:47 PM

Here we go 5 days before I leave for Run and Gun and I thinik I am having electrical problems with my MSD system.

Here are the facts:

New MSD 6AL BOX
New MSD Vibration Proof Coil
New MSD Pickup for my MSD FE Dist (dist only 1 yr old)
New Taylor 8 1/2 mm wires
New Accel 416 plugs
Battery fully charged and spins like a sob

The engines spins, I am getting plenty of fuel but my engine will not fire. However, it will start with a push. I started it after work tonight and drove a little then brought it home and parked it at the far end of my drive (wife had company blocking my garage). I put the car in 2nd gear and turned the key and it rolled about 3 feet and started. I then drove it into the garage and tried to restart it and it wouldn't start.

Question: Is there any possibility the Reluctor is bad in the dist? Is there anything else that could be causing this problem? I am totally at a loss why this is happening. Any ideas would be appreciated.

EDIT NOTE: I also have a new Dist Cap and Rotor.
Clois

Rick Parker · #2 (**permalink**) 10-10-2003, 08:20 PM

Clois: Try this in a safe environment:

Immediatly when this happens shift into neutral, pull the center coil wire from the dist cap and attach a spark plug to it, grounding the body of the plug away from the carburetor. With a jumper wire (6"X 18 gage) disconnect the distributor lead to the msd box. Turn the key to the run position and then repeatedly make and break connection with the two "prongs" in the connector plug to the MSD box. "IF" the previously mentioned spark plug fires each time you break the contact then the MSD box is working. You may be expieriencing fuel percolation that takes place during heat soak shortly after shutting the engine off. This causes fuel to boil out of the float bowl vents and then raw fuel dumps into the manifold.
Be careful to not put the plug near any fuel vapors.
It is also possible that the needle & seat is allowing residual fuel pressure to over fill the float bowls during shutdown during hot conditions, causing problems as stated above. If you don't have spark, then check the box.

Good luck
Rick

Clois Harlan · #3 (**permalink**) 10-11-2003, 04:37 AM

Rick,

I will try that in about 30 mins. But you mentioned possible problems with the needle and seats. I installed new "off road" needle and seats to maybe eliminate problems with pickup during hard braking and hard turns at the race track. Could this be causing a problem as well?

Clois

cobra427mnsi · #4 (**permalink**) 10-11-2003, 05:32 AM

Clois

Are you saying that the car will not start when in neutral but will start when in gear ? What about in gear with the clutch pedal pushed in ?

Is there some kind of nuetral safety switch or electrical problem at the tranny. I hope this doesn't sound too off the wall. Just a thought.

Paul

Clois Harlan · #5 (**permalink**) 10-11-2003, 05:46 AM

No neutral safety switch. I may not have explaned the push start correctly.

I put my car in second gear and let out the clutch and turned the key on and the starter moved my car forward about 3 feet and it fired up. I immediately pushed in the clutch and pumped the accelorator a couple of times and then put the car in first gear and drove it into my garage and killed it. I tried to start it again and nothing but a spinning engine.

I have worked on a time line of changes I have made and when this all started happening I had just replaced my needle and seats with off road needle and seats. I never had a problem with my engine starting before.

kountzecobra · #6 (**permalink**) 10-11-2003, 06:05 AM

Ignition switch and/or related wiring? Bypass the switch (IE "hotwire ") and see if it starts? Sure doesn't sound like fuel problems to me. Has to be electrical.

Ron61 · #7 (**permalink**) 10-11-2003, 06:44 AM

Clois,

I may be way off the wall with this as I haven't used an MSD setup for a long time. But I had a similiar problem with one of my Cobras running the Jacobs Pro Street. If the MSD has an easy way like the Jacobs to convert back to running off just the distributor and taking the computer out of the euation, I would try that first and if you have a remote starter button that you can use from under the hood try it. When I took the computer out and just ran from the normal coil, distributor setup mine would start. So after much checking I found that the trigger lead from the distributor to the Jacobs unit had came loose inside the wire loom where it was in a connector. AfterI replaced the connector I have never had another problem. The fact that the engine spins over from the switch would take that mostly out of the equation for me and also the fact that it ran when you got it started. Rick's suggestion for testing the MSD unit is a great idea but just takes longer than the way I did the Jacobs. With the Jacobs set up I can do it in about 20 seconds. But maybe the MSD doesn't have that means to do it. Good luck. By the way I am using a magnetic type distributor also.

ron

Clois Harlan · #8 (**permalink**) 10-11-2003, 06:47 AM

David,

Thats my first thoughts too, but I replaced my ignition switch. I have a tach shift light that flashes on when I turn on the key, so I am sure I am getting power to that side of the switch. Also, on that same side of my ignition switch is my fuel pump and electric fan. I have had this same electrical configuration for over 3 years now and never had a problem starting. Could there be something in the fuse box that could be causing this?

If I hot wire it directly from my hot post on my battery cut off switch could I hurt anything else? Electrical matters are my weakness.

Clois

Rick Parker · #9 (**permalink**) 10-11-2003, 07:19 AM

Clois: For complete MSD troubleshooting go to www.msdignition.com http://
(nice post huh???) Click on "trouble shooting". Check all your connections, if you determine spark is ok then check for fuel, maybe float levels are too high, you mentioned off road needle & seats these are intended for Jeep type applications and unusual angles of climbing such as rock crawling. Maybe your pump is pushing fuel past them??

The heavy 10 gage red from MSD box should be connected to the starter solenoid not through a fuse panel. The small (16/18 gage red wire) goes to a switched 12 volt source. Just a thought....if your fuse box is uncovered (open to the elements??) make sure you dont have corrosion on the contacts of the fuse in question if you are running it (small 16/18 red wire) through the fuse box. Humidity can play havoc for you guys that live in it, fortunately out here it is not that big of a problem.

BTW: For best results your fan should be run through a relay. You may be overloading the contacts in your ignition switch, running the MSD, Fan and other accesories through the switch??
Rick

Cracker · #10 (**permalink**) 10-11-2003, 07:24 AM

Clois,

If your engine turns over the switch is working!? I don't know as much as these other guys but it does seem like a box issue.

As I start every engine problem - you need Fuel, Oxygen & spark. You have fuel, you have oxygen - whammo - your missing spark - maybe. Best wishes and enjoy the Run & Gun.

Clois Harlan · #11 (**permalink**) 10-11-2003, 07:42 AM

Well I gave my neighbors until 8:30 to wake up so I went to start my engine. You guessed it, the engine fired right up, just like it should. Let it run about 5 minutes and shut it down. I tried to start it again and the same old crap, it won't fire now. What ever is causing this problem is driving me nuts. Not to mention being really pi$$ed off.

Could my battery be down after a start and not providing enough volts on re-start?

I am going back and put in my old stock needle and seats just to see if that could be the problem.

Clois

Rick Parker · #12 (**permalink**) 10-11-2003, 07:47 AM

Did you check for spark like I suggested in my first post??
The orange & purple wires are the ones. Do NOT crank engine.

Rick

Cracker · #13 (**permalink**) 10-11-2003, 08:11 AM

I'm fairly confident that it is not your battery if your engine is spinning but not starting. It is probably in the box but another potential problem is the coil - you mentioned it's new, I think. Do the test that was suggested to eliminate the box. Let us know and don't get pi$$ed - it doesn't help you think.

Clois Harlan · #14 (**permalink**) 10-11-2003, 08:49 AM

Rick,

You're right no spark. This is the 3rd box in as many months. I am going to take it down to the speed shop and have them test it. I have also, replaced three coils. Could MSD have produced a bad batch of boxes? My first box came from Summit, the second and third I bought at O'Reilly's on Sundays (speed shops closed).

My question is that if it is the box why will it run with a push start? My first MSD box I purchased in the fall of 2001 and it worked flawlessly for almost two years. These last two boxes came from O'Reilly's and were wired up exactly as the first.

Clois

392cobra · #15 (**permalink**) 10-11-2003, 08:57 AM

Clois,
Where are you mounting your msd box ?

Had one mounted on the fenderwell of another car I have.One day,no spark. It had blown the fuse to it.Then it happened another time months later.
I moved the box out of the engine compartment and it never happened again.

Clois Harlan · #16 (**permalink**) 10-11-2003, 09:02 AM

392

I moved my box from inside the engine compartment to high above the passenger foot box. No passengers since this started.
I have mounted with the shock rubbers and studs (sounds nasty doesn't it). You said you blew a fuse. Where is your fuse located plus I will guarantee you my engine will start in an hour.

Clois

392cobra · #17 (**permalink**) 10-11-2003, 09:08 AM

Clois,
The car I was referring to had an inline fuse in the red 12 volt supply line.
On my Cobra,it is in the main fuse block.

That is sure sorry luck with msd boxes.

Cracker · #18 (**permalink**) 10-11-2003, 10:05 AM

Clois - I would be skeptical to say the least that you received 3 bad boxes. It is more likely that the problem is either something else or a wiring problem that causes this failure in the boxes. I mounted mine on top of the passenger footbox in the engine compartment and have had no problems and I would doubt that many get hotter than mine. Two things stand out - first, you had allot of new electrical stuff, second - you mentioned everything is wired up/connected the same way. I don't want to offend you but could it be wrong. I would think you have already scrutenized this but you never know.

wilf leek · #19 (**permalink**) 10-11-2003, 11:48 AM

Clois - if you do indeed find that your MSD box is faulty, then something on your car is killing it (them).

One thing that MSD boxes do not like is voltage spikes on the supply. They do list a large capacitor, which sits across the earth and (permanent) +ve supply lines, close as you can manage to the box itself. This smooths out any voltage spikes, and is a particularly good idea if you have a battery isolating key switch.

Might keep box #4 in working order.

HTH

James Baldwin · #20 (**permalink**) 10-11-2003, 01:02 PM

You mentioned you moved your MSD. Did you also move your ground to the MSD?

1. Try an alternate ground for your MSD

2. Do you have a ground strap in the front of the car?

3. Check to see if your 12v power wire to the MSD is getting voltage when you try to start the engine. (use a tester light or meter if you have them.)