351c help

[Conchyjodyoos]

First off my name is Mike and I'm a newbie. I recently purchased a 1997 CR with a 351c installed. The only build info included was one sheet with hand written notes. Here they are:

Ground crank r.010/m.010, bronze valve guides, milled deck, bore cylinder, milled heads, engine balanced, erson cam high flow, perf pistons, main bearing set, plasma ceramic rings, new push rods 5/16, roller rockers, new intake/exhaust valves, balancer, cam bearing set, rod bearing set, balanced assembly. Says engine is a 1970 but I've been unable to confirm, can't see the casting numbers.

There's no more info that this, I checked the heads and they are cast with a 4. They engine runs fine and based on this limited info are there any educated guesses on the HP? I would like a dragster type idle and cobra valve covers but they seem hard to find. I'm thinking of going Windsor 427 so it sort of matches what should be in there or do you think I should re-cam this engine and just go with ford racing covers. Would a Windsor bolt right up to existing mounts? Thx

[bkozlow]

If the engine is a 1970, it has 2 bolt mains and a cast crank. 1971 Boss 351C was the engine of choice in this series with a solid lifter cam as all the others were hydraulics. I am not sure about the 4, but two sets of heads were available. The 2-barrel head and the 4-barrel head. You can tell as soon as you pull off a header. The ports on the four barrel heads are huge. The 2-barrel heads were actually better around town as the velocities were down in the big heads because of the size, except at high RPM. At high revs the big heads made all kinds of HP. I would get use to the car with the present setup before I jumped into a different engine. As I remember, the engine mounts are the same for the 351C and the 351W (427).

Bill K

[blykins]

The "4" on the front of the head next to the valve cover means it's a 4V head.

From what I've seen here on the dyno with factory heads and milder setups, you can easily make 400-420 hp.

You can also change the cam if you want to something thumpy.

If you do decide to change to a Windsor, the motor mounts and drivetrain will bolt right back up. Headers will need to change.

[Conchyjodyoos]

Thanks guys, I've found some more info, it shows tc-1921 .030 pistons, h900 lifters which I think are of the hydraulic family, and a camshaft #D2ZZ-6250-B

[jkg2101]

I have a lot of experience building Cleveland's for my panteras. If the short block is good, whether it has 4 bolt mains or just 2 bolts, Cleveland's are great for high performance street builds. A stock Cleveland with stock heads and cam is just ok. But add hydraulic roller cam and aftermarket ( I like chi) heads, and you have a fantastic street/strip engine. A Windsor build is not any better in general

I can offer more advice if you're going to make a Cleveland high performance build. Justin

[Conchyjodyoos]

Ok, I've decided to do some upgrades to my 351c while I work on obtaining a 427w or fe. I plan on replacing the cam and intake. I'm looking for a rough dragster like idle and descent midrange pull. Engine specifics: .030 over with stock pistons, stock 4V heads w/ roller rockers, side exhaust/headers and a Holley 750.
I know the new components must match so any help/guidance is much appreciated. Thx!

[snapier]

There are a few 351(C) Shelby valve covers on sale now on e-bay...

[blykins]

I specialize in Clevelands.....give me a call, I can give you advice on the camshaft.

[wkooiman]

Like Justin, I have also run a 351C for years in my Pantera.

I really like the 282S, but it isn't a dragster like idle. It is slightly rough with a nice solid lifter sewing machine sound. That was in a stock 351C, with only the 282S and an aluminum intake. In that tune, it was about the same speed as a C5 Corvette.

I currently have a 4" stroker crank (408), aluminum A3 heads, and 11:1 compression. I tried a 292S, but it sounded too aggressive. Maybe I'm getting old, but I only want to wake the neighbors, not the people in the next county. I switched to a smaller camshaft, and it is better, but it still sounds too aggressive.

One of the magazines did a Ford vs. Chevy test a few years ago. They pitted similar engines from each year to see how they compared. The Boss 351 and the '70 351CJ killed the 350 Chevys, and you know how everyone always says that the ports are too big? The 351C only made slightly less torque down low, so apparently the too-big-port issue isn't that big of a problem.

Granted, a smaller port is going to work better. All of the pro engine builders have proven that. I"m just saying that if you are running stock heads, don't worry about the 4V size. They're what makes the 351C great.

There is a rumor that if the "4" has a round dot next to it, then you have closed chamber heads, which is desirable. But the dot doesn't always mean closed chamber heads.

I would trust Brent, so please don't take my word over his. This is a hobby for me, so I'm just an amateur. I'm just giving you some data points on driving a 351C powered car as a daily driver.

Will.

[Conchyjodyoos]

Thanks guys for all the input! Out of curiosity I pulled a valve cover and the heads have the date code 9K25 and a cast 4 (no dot) which according to a spreadsheet I found online makes them the 11:1 closed chamber type. Not sure if that's good or not At first I had my heart set on a 427 but now I'm not so sure, maybe a hopped up Cleveland? Yesterday I took the car for a spin and for the first time wound her up past 6K rpm and wow, that car hauls azz and with from what I can tell it seems a stock motor.

[Conchyjodyoos]

Originally Posted by blykins

I specialize in Clevelands.....give me a call, I can give you advice on the camshaft.

I'll give you a call Monday, thx!

[Conchyjodyoos]

For those interested here's the tale of my engine. Brent (lykinsmotorsports) was nice enough to set me up with a custom grind comp cam, intake, valve covers, etc. Once the parts arrived I took everything off to remove the cam, unfortunately when removing the cam the rear cam bearing fell out. Yes that's bad so after a couple beers I came to grips that the motor had to come out. I thought about scrapping the block but Brent steered me to at least find out what was going on.

The motor arrived at my local machine shop a few days later and during tear down we discovered the cam bores were fine. It seems the previous builder didn't align the oil hole precisely allowing that bearing to heat cycle and loosen. We also found low compression Pistons were used. With this news I decided to fully rebuild the motor including new 11:1 Pistons, bearings, seals, valve job, etc.

I got the engine back last week and bolted everything up. My builder was nice enough to come to my house for initial start-up and break in. She sounds like a cobra should now. The block is basically now a stock 1970 4V quench with original spec 11:1, edelbrock intake and Brent's custom cam really woke up this motor! I'm happy I kept the Cleveland.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by Conchyjodyoos

It seems the previous builder didn't align the oil hole precisely allowing that bearing to heat cycle and loosen.

The bearing probably starved for oil and spun in the bore, hence why it fell out of the block on camshaft removal.

Somehow the block was still ok? Lucky.

Gary

[wkooiman]

Conchyjodyoos,

Make sure you use a big-@ss oil pan with proper baffles. Any engine will spin bearings if you pump air instead of oil.

I used to watch my oil pressure gauge go to zero during cornering. Actually, I should say, I freaked out when I saw my gauge go to zero, so I promptly bought a bigger oil pan.

Your 351C will easily rev high enough to pump a stock pan dry.

Will.

[Conchyjodyoos]

Gary, for some reason the bearing didn't spin, but it was about to... And Will we installed a new hi flow oil pump, drive, and pick up and my builder wasn't concerned about starvation but I will keep an eye on it. Took her for another drive this morning, what a blast.

[Buzz]

The old time Ford guys here in the islands would love this. Because of the 60's and early 70's Mustangs that made their way down here in the 70's and 80's, the Cleveland is still regarded as the superior 351. Times and reality have changed, but to these die-hards, the Windsors will always be regarded as the lesser of the two.

[blykins]

Buzz, I'm in that camp....

I always prefer the Cleveland head over the Windsor head....

[wkooiman]

Conchyjodyoos,

Just please be careful if you keep your foot in it. If you hear a ticking sound afterward, you probably just spun a bearing.

Buzz - the Windsor was a dog before all of the aluminum heads came out in the mid-late 1980's. We called them a Whimpsor in the early 1980s. Granted, modern heads have made them formidable, but the 351C canted style heads still make more power.